Father's WW2 experience
My dad volunteered for service in World War Two. He was in the 2/30th Battalion, they were sent up to Malaysia etcetera. He ended up prisoner of war of the Japanese for three and a half years. It was sort of interesting talking to him about that because he never had much to say, but they only ever spoke about fun things. He never showed any animosity towards the Japanese, but would often laugh at their antics, etc. They talk about things like, he'd once given the bag by Japanese soldier and he was told to take it up to the guard post because it's their lunch in there. So, on the way he opened the bag and there was half a dog in there. So those sorts of things, they'd talk about it and he never could understand the Japanese because of how they treated them but, as I say, having said that, I never heard him speak badly of them. He just didn't, you know, couldn't understand it, how they could be so cruel and that sort of thing.
Training
I was really interested and excited, to be honest, you know, I didn't have any queries about, it never entered my mind not to, you know, go and find some excuse not to go or whatever. I was happy enough to be part of it… You start off at Kapooka where you just have three months of basic stuff. Teach you how to march and lessons in basic military stuff… Singleton, you just do infantry corps training. They teach you what the infantry soldiers do out in the bush, etc. And you do a lot of shooting and so forth…Canungra was a jungle training centre and that consisted of a series of short exercises, etc. and also the different ranges, you know, ranges where you'd walk along with the submachine gun and something would pop out, a target and you engage it, that sort of thing, but also, you know, how you had to live in the bush, how to be quiet and so forth. And you get together with, you understand your field craft and just general basic, you know, infantry tactics… rifle shooting, etcetera, and throwing grenades, that was sort of the basic training. Then when you went to infantry training, they did more of it and you then had other weapons, like the M60, lessons on that and depending on what position you had in infantry sections, what weapons you carry, and then that was decided once you went to a battalion and allocated to a platoon in a section… it was nearly 12 months of training before we went to Vietnam and a lot of other people, you know, who were replacements, etc. they didn't have that. We had Infantry corps training, then jungle training centre and then you'd be the off somewhere, whereas we had some major exercises with the battalion as well. So, from that point of view, we were pretty lucky. We were very confident, probably because we didn't know better.
Arrival in Vietnam and acclimatisation
I hadn't been to a Asian country previously, and so you're just surprised at what's going on, so to speak… we were given briefings on it and what responsibilities we had there because we had a section of perimeter that you used to guard when you're in back there and in the trenches where they're sited and all that sort of stuff, and just got a rundown on how it operated and it's pretty straightforward sort of stuff. All the bunkers and so forth had already been built by the previous battalion there. We just took over what was already there… There's a lot of lectures and basically acclimatization, you know, and the things that you need, you know, day to day things that are important that they, you know, taking your antimalarial drugs and that sort of thing. They sort of emphasized the basics, you know, if you fill up your water out in the bush, what do you do to make sure that you're not going to get sick from it or whatever, just those very basic things… When we arrived over there full of confidence, etc., but you didn't really know what you letting yourself in for. So, you learned, you know, how you do things differently, etc. I think the other thing, when you spend so much time in the jungle, you get to understand it, you know, like when we first went over there, you could hear these, we didn't know what it was, but these monkeys, they'd sort of, the way they move through the treetops, sort of crunching leaves, etc. The first time we heard them it that sounded like people walking. So, you just get, the same with the smells. People would laugh and say, "Oh, you could smell a Vietnamese camp by their cooking" and so forth and we'd know they were there. Well, if you smelled yourself after you'd been in the bush for three or four weeks and you haven't had a shower, you can imagine, that they could smell us as well. So, what I'm sort of getting at is the time spent in the jungle, you become more aware of, you know, everything around you. So, if somebody came in there as a replacement first up, it's a learning process for them and there's other things, you know, you really need to be quiet about what you're doing, you know, whether it's a simple thing of packing up in the morning and so forth. And so, the basic things you keep an eye on, you know, but, overall, it's just everyone had the same understanding.
Operation Hawkesbury
We set out in the morning. You're looking for any enemy signs etc. and sometime into the initial thing we found a trail where the enemy had been, just some broken branches every 10, 20 metres or whatever so that they were, we followed that up then came to the edge of a bunker system. Our gunner opened fire almost simultaneously with the enemy soldier in one of the forward bunkers, who went to ground then and moved forward. There was about 17 of us, as I remember it and, of course, as I say, these bunkers were strategically placed. They've got interlocking fire, and the principal weapon of the North Vietnamese was a AK 47. It fires 7.62 short rounds. It's the ideal weapon over those short distances. So, it's just like having, you know, just as effective as a machine gun because it's so close or you're so close to them. So, we went to ground, moved forward on the right flank, as I remember it, there was some grenades thrown into bunkers and then they were thrown out. Blokes got hit by shrapnel, etc., and then it sort of went from there. The platoon commander was badly wounded, and the medic ran forward to help someone who, else, had been shot or blown up. I don't remember now, but he got shot. To cut a long story short, out of 17 people you had three killed and six wounded, but the problem being that you were there, you weren't going anywhere. You couldn't go forward and you're obviously not going to go back. You couldn't move that amount of people were waiting to be relieved. That seemed to go on for a long, long while and then, I think it was B Company arrived on the scene and then choppering the wounded out into the night and then, as I say, two people were dead on the ground there and one died on the helicopter going back to Vung Tau… this is all from 7 platoon. It was obviously decimated by that because out of those, all those killed and wounded and obviously none of them were back in the platoon… the actual patrol that went on that thing, there was 17 of us so yeah, that is just one of those things. You were stuck there. You couldn't go forward, you couldn't go back, because it was so close you had the leaves and twigs sort of coming down on you, You shoot and they shoot, but they couldn't quite get the their weapons down to and if you stood up you were in big trouble… The gunner was in there, where we were just sort of to one side, and he went forward to a tree and instantly he was killed. And once you were stuck there, you couldn't pull back because it was too many people that were badly wounded.
Contracting malaria
Unfortunately, I landed in Hong Kong and I had contracted malaria, I had malaria, and I got put in the British military hospital there. So, I was gone for 19 days and nobody knew where I was because I was supposed to be back after five days. I always remember being sort of delirious, if you like and in the hotel I was in, I called the room service and I wanted to, for some strange reason, a glass of lemon juice. I just wanted squeezed lemon juice for whatever reason and he wanted $50 or something, you know. I remember that but I was sort of not in a real good place. So, anyway, this wave of feeling delirious and sweating and all this, come and go, and as soon as I felt that I was able to, I went straight to the hospital. I was just standing there and told them I was unwell. The nurse took a temperature and then it was a bit of a panic session to get a wheelchair and so forth to cart me off and so I was there, all up in hospital just over two weeks and away for 19 days…. I suppose the most important thing is I bought this Rolex watch there in 1968, and I've had it for 50 years. It was 116 American dollars, Australian dollars, rather, which is the equivalent to 122 American dollars. A bit different now, of course, but that was about the only thing I could do there because they let me out of hospital for a couple of days and I still wasn't real well.
Bunker systems
I think the thing to understand in as far as the bunker systems go, they theren't just bunkers put anywhere, they were always sighted in a way that they had interlocking fire and there was sort of vegetation amongst them about, say, a metre high, but if you lay down or got inside the bunker and looked out, the stem of that vegetation halfway up would be clear and, of course, if you were walking through that, you can't tell that but if you're down on the ground in the bunker, you see exactly what's going on before they can sight you, so basically they were very well planned, they'd been doing it for a long, long time. They were fighting the French before the Second World War, or the Japanese, you know, whatever. So, when it comes to sighting them, we once went into one which is in a Y shape. If you look at the Y, if you put a gun on the tip of the three points of a Y, and if there's a central bunker where you could shoot out of anywhere within that Y. No matter what way you approached that you had three guns firing at you, you know. So, again, when you look at the way they position them things, that is very dangerous. Later, in fact when we were moving into that particular bunker system and luckily Bill Dollman saw some movement up there, yeah. Now it wouldn't matter if there's three or four people in that, or three or 400 people, no matter what way you approach it. It was, you know, you go and you can't not take casualties. S we were able to pull back and drop artillery on it rather than, if you try to assault it. Every time he went into those things, actions, you would come off second best, but the point I make is they've been doing that for a long while. They were very well constructed and you know, from a defensive positions in that sort of area, to be able to have, take, no matter what way you came in there, you can take fire from three positions. It's very well constructed, very well planned, and very well positioned, too. So, you can't take that away from them.
7 - Operations
You'd be given an area to cover and basically was, you know, it could be referred to as search and destroy or whatever, but you're just looking out, seeking the enemy wherever that might be, you know. If you had an area of operations and the C.O., etcetera, would work out a plan of what they wanted and you just went along with it… The longest time was out in the bush without a break was six weeks, and I changed my greens once in that time. A lot of the operations, about a month you used to be out there, come back, have a week or so, have a few beers and then off you go again.
Return home
I remember it clear as a bel. We sat on that plane, and I thought, "Well, we're home." And the Qantas staff were amazing. It was just, you know, a tremendous feeling because you, the truth is, you've been hyper vigilant for months on end, you know, stomping around the bush, etc. and, you know, just sitting there on that plane before it took off, you know, I felt I was home, you know, and it's a pretty strange but, you know, a good feeling… I had a large group of good mates, we played football as teenagers and, yeah, we first went to the pubs together, all this sort of thing. We were a very tight group and I missed them, you know, terribly, and I thought, you know, really looking forward to meeting up with them, well, it was, they were on another planet. The things that you, everything sort of changed for me, your priorities, your understanding, etc. and I just couldn't relate to them, you know, and that's why, you know, I found the best thing I could do was to go back in the Army and I think, as it turned out, the best thing I did. I, as I say, I couldn't relate but I wasn't settled, you know, and just seemed to be confused more than anything… It sounds a bit mean but, you know, the blokes I knocked around with and that, they're still cracking the same jokes we had when we were 15 or something and what was important to them or what might upset them, well if you've been in situations where blokes have been ripped to bits and you've, you know, retrieved their bodies and so forth, it's, everything sort of, priorities change. Things that, you know, somebody they'd be upset about that I just see is so insignificant, but just, I won't say everybody was like that, but most people are the same, it's very hard to rate. I mean, you matured in Vietnam from the first sort of contact you had, you know, because the thing is that you only, you make a mistake, you're in trouble, you know, and I think also, you know, having been, you know, seeing your mates killed, etc. you're just on a different plane to other people. You relate to other soldiers, etc. and that sort of remains to this day. It's very hard for other people to understand that, you know. It's not anyone's fault. It's just a fact of life.
Rejoining the army
I went back in the army, I went to SAS and I couldn't believe it. The place was full of nutters, mad as hatters, the lot of them, which was fantastic for me. I fitted in perfectly. I loved it and I had 16 wonderful years there. It was a privilege, you know, to serve there. I was very lucky. I went from a trooper to a warrant officer and liked every minute I was there. The best thing I ever did was to come back in the Army because, as I said, I couldn't relate to anything much and I think the discipline, etc. was good for me and that paid dividend…The Vietnam War was still on when I joined the SAS. My intention was to do a tour with them, and it didn't eventuate, but they then had to sort of regroup, if you like, and look at ow the regiment was going to operate. They had formed a vehicle mounted troop and water operations group and a free fall, parachuting group. I was in the water operations group was very lucky there, I got involved in the initial training they did and then from the point of view of interests and so forth, it was terrific and then the counterterrorist thing started. The Fraser government wanted counterterrorist training to take place and I was heavily involved in that and then after a while I left. I was a patrol commander, then a troops sergeant, then I was the senior instructor of the demolitions wing, then I was squadron sar major of the counterterrorist terrorist squadron for about two and a half years, that ended my time there. It's sort of interesting that the furtherest on Australia that you can get posted from Campbell Barracks in Swanbourne in Perth was the tip of Cape York and I think by moving me there, they'd had enough of me. That's as far way from the place as you could go. I had a fantastic there. It was a privilege and I'm very fortunate to have had that 16 years in SAS.
Joining the RSL
I used to go to the RSL with my mother and father. The thing was, in particular with World War Two blokes, they stuck together, you know, their drug of choice was alcohol, you know, so they were all in the RSL. And anyway, the first thing I, because, you know, my Dad had been in the RSL, Coogee, Renwick RSL and that's where we went many times. So I was pretty quick to go there to become a member. Anyway I fronted in and spoke to somebody and he said to me, "I just got to check to see if we have to take you." And I was sort of just confused. I didn't know what he meant by that to be honest. I thought, "Am I hearing right?". Anyway, he came back then with the paperwork and then, you know, nothing further was said, but I found out some time later another friend of mine, he went to join a year earlier and they wouldn't have him.
Cape York
I was the first regular army soldier set up there, posted to there. When we landed there. I'd been up to look at what the situation was, and we drove from Perth with my wife and four kids in a non-air-conditioned land cruiser up to Cairns and then we flew up the kids to Weipa. My wife was astonished, she didn't talk to me for four days, but anyway, we had the time up there, the kids loved it and my job was working with the Aboriginal groups at places like Kowanyama, Red River, Aurukun and all of the, Sue Island, Thursday, all the Murray Island, Bamaga, Weipa South, you know, that's where the Army Reserve was coming from and I was involved in, you know, courses for them and recruiting them and that sort of thing.
Post Traumatic Stress Disorder
I think some of the World War One blokes told the World War Two blokes they had it easy compared to them but, at the end of the day, if you're hyper vigilant for extended periods and being shot at and so forth. I don't care whether it's Timor, whether it's New Guinea or the Middle East or whatever. It doesn't matter. I mean the end result is the same, you know, and people with PTSD. I mean, if you read stuff from the Roman times, there's plenty of that kicking around then. It's no, it'll always be there. If you subject people to that and I use the terminology hypervigilant, that comes from a GP I used to see who was better than any psychiatrist and, you know, and who in that job was involved with veterans matters, I mean I met professors of psychiatry and all that sort of stuff, but being hypervigilant for extended periods of time, you pay a price for that. And even today, I had a minister for Veterans Affairs say to me, "Oh, Blue, we've got some concerns about the multiple deployments of soldiers from Iraq and into Afghanistan. There's some concerns that that have an accumulative effect on their mental health because, you know, because some SAS blokes have done 5, 10 tours, etc.". I said, "Well, just why would you think otherwise?" It's a commonsense thing. Of course that's how it is. If you subject people to this extended period. It was once put to me that the reason they cut the tours to six months was because they reckon that Vietnam proved to year at a time was, it's always intense when you don't stop doing your job. It's same as what these blokes in Afghanistan do but that will have an effect on anybody. Well, some people apparently aren't affected, but they're psychopaths. Otherwise, that's the truth of the matter, you pay a price for that. But the point I make about that particular minister was that was in 2007. Here we are 16 years later, we're still talking about the same issues, you know. I don't think there's any way around that myself. If you're going to send people to war, things will happe and people will be affected by it. It's just, as I say, psychopaths apparently aren't affected so much with PTSD or soldiers heart they called it in the First World War and then there's shellshock and all this sort of stuff. Call it whatever you like, and, you know, when you bring those problems back, your family, etc., and they're always there.
